129: Nikko Kennedy - Living in Rhythm: Circadian Health at Every Stage of Life

Meredith Oke: 00:05:00

Hi, Nico Kennedy. Welcome back to the QVC podcast.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:05:05

Thank you, Meredith. It's great to be here.

Meredith Oke: 00:05:08

It's so nice to have you again. And for those of

Meredith Oke: 00:05:12

you who are newer, I highly recommend going back

Meredith Oke: 00:05:15

and finding my other interviews with Nico. But

Meredith Oke: 00:05:19

because for this one we're going to cover some

Meredith Oke: 00:05:22

more experiential territory. But before we get

Meredith Oke: 00:05:25

into that, I do want to just do a little overview

Meredith Oke: 00:05:28

of your focus area in terms of the research and

Meredith Oke: 00:05:34

the work that you do and your substack. Brighter

Meredith Oke: 00:05:36

Days, Darker Nights. Everyone should be

Meredith Oke: 00:05:39

subscribing. Tell us a little bit about that.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:05:44

Yeah, sure. I am really interested in, like,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:05:49

health from the very beginning of life and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:05:52

helping to optimize. And so it's kind of like a,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:05:56

all of this circadian and quantum health, the,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:05:59

the newborn period and to, you know, my

Nikko Kennedy: 00:06:02

background is as a doula and so supporting mother

Nikko Kennedy: 00:06:07

baby bonding, supporting the childbirth

Nikko Kennedy: 00:06:08

experience, supporting postpartum experiences,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:06:12

understanding infant development. I, when I got

Nikko Kennedy: 00:06:16

into circadian health, eventually I realized it

Nikko Kennedy: 00:06:19

was like a big light bulb moment. Whoa. There's a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:06:21

lot going on here. Our circadian rhythms are

Nikko Kennedy: 00:06:25

first programmed in early life and that can kind

Nikko Kennedy: 00:06:29

of carry through for the rest of life. And then

Nikko Kennedy: 00:06:32

it has expanded out because I'm very curious. And

Nikko Kennedy: 00:06:34

so where I was really focused just on mamas and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:06:38

babies, I've also learned like at puberty, at

Nikko Kennedy: 00:06:41

menopause, in old age, there are also just stages

Nikko Kennedy: 00:06:44

of life where our circadian health is very

Nikko Kennedy: 00:06:46

different based on what our biology is like

Nikko Kennedy: 00:06:48

trying to optimize for in those phases of life.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:06:50

So I kind of am like, developmental circadian

Nikko Kennedy: 00:06:53

biology.

Meredith Oke: 00:06:54

We're gonna have to talk about that.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:06:57

Absolutely. It's super cute because you always

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:00

hear like, oh, babies are just like little

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:02

grandma and Grandp when they're born with their

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:04

wrinkly little faces. And turns out, like,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:06

grandma and grandpa don't really produce much

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:08

pineal melatonin. Little babies also don't

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:11

produce much pineal melatonin. And so in some

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:14

ways their circadian needs are very similar in

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:16

terms of really being attuned to light and social

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:19

cues. Unless the darkness and need for darkness

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:23

isn't as great in those stages because for the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:26

old people, their pineal glands are often

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:27

calcified, so they're not going to produce pineal

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:30

melatonin. It is still important. There are, you

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:33

know, like I said, like, we could do a whole

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:35

podcast on that. Today we're getting together to

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:37

more talk about like day to day realities and all

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:41

of that. But yeah, fascinating stuff. And if You.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:44

For those who are listening that are interested

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:46

and want to jump into that, like, my substack is

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:48

huge. There's. I'm getting close to like 300

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:52

posts in the archive there of just like all of

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:55

this nerdy stuff. I always have tons of citations

Nikko Kennedy: 00:07:59

in my work.

Meredith Oke: 00:08:00

Eco stuff for those listening who haven't been,

Meredith Oke: 00:08:02

is like very, very deeply researched. So if you

Meredith Oke: 00:08:06

hear her mention anything on here and you're

Meredith Oke: 00:08:08

like, wait, what? I want to know more. Like,

Meredith Oke: 00:08:10

there is more. She has definitely written on it.

Meredith Oke: 00:08:15

So I just want to cover this a little bit. So

Meredith Oke: 00:08:19

there's the newborn phase, puberty, menopause.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:08:25

Yeah, Old age.

Meredith Oke: 00:08:27

Our circadian rhythm rhythms change during each

Meredith Oke: 00:08:32

of those periods. How so?

Nikko Kennedy: 00:08:34

Yeah, yeah, they're different based on what's

Nikko Kennedy: 00:08:37

happening with our hormones. So, you know,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:08:38

newborn babies, the first six weeks of life, they

Nikko Kennedy: 00:08:40

don't really produce much melatonin at all. They

Nikko Kennedy: 00:08:42

get it from mom's breast milk. And then they do

Nikko Kennedy: 00:08:48

start producing melatonin, producing more and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:08:49

more. And melatonin climbs all the way through

Nikko Kennedy: 00:08:51

childhood. Puberty happens at the point where

Nikko Kennedy: 00:08:55

melatonin starts to fall. And then melatonin

Nikko Kennedy: 00:08:58

declines across, across the lifespan, basically.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:09:03

And then we see like, menopause tends to hit at a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:09:06

particular phase when melatonin reaches a low

Nikko Kennedy: 00:09:09

threshold. So you always hear about like, you

Nikko Kennedy: 00:09:13

know, the, the female sex hormones is that it's

Nikko Kennedy: 00:09:15

when those fizzle out. But actually melatonin is

Nikko Kennedy: 00:09:18

also a sex hormone. Um, so you also see melatonin

Nikko Kennedy: 00:09:23

falling and really amazing clinical trials with

Nikko Kennedy: 00:09:26

melatonin supplementation at that stage, which,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:09:29

you know, there's a lot you can do to boost your

Nikko Kennedy: 00:09:32

endogenous melatonin as well. So we kind of

Nikko Kennedy: 00:09:35

extrapolate from the research back and forth

Nikko Kennedy: 00:09:36

because it's, you know, the research field is

Nikko Kennedy: 00:09:41

kind of still catching up with the understandings

Nikko Kennedy: 00:09:44

that we have in the world of quantum biology

Nikko Kennedy: 00:09:46

where we're oftentimes like cross piecing

Nikko Kennedy: 00:09:50

interdisciplinary research. So I think we'll see

Nikko Kennedy: 00:09:52

a lot more with that going on. And then dementia

Nikko Kennedy: 00:09:56

and arsenality hits when melatonin basically

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:00

becomes like negligible. Which is why I say like

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:03

the old folks are again, kind of like the newborn

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:05

babies. So it's like this graph where it like

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:08

goes up and then at puberty is the peak, where it

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:11

then like declines. So this whole full slope. And

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:13

then there are other things that happen with

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:15

cortisol and sex hormones and all of that kind of

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:17

thing. Women, women have like a monthly ride that

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:21

they go on where sleep is often more disturbed in

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:24

the Luteal phase. So yeah, there's all kinds of

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:27

things with circadian health. But the really, you

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:32

know, cool thing about all of the complexity is

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:35

it always boils down to like, the prescription is

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:37

always the same, which is to retune your

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:39

environment back to nature. Nature is the gold

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:41

standard. Nature takes care of everyone's

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:45

circadian health at the same time. So that's,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:48

that's where it's, you know, nice and holistic.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:50

And all of this is fascinating and can help

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:52

understand like, oh, why does grandpa always wake

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:55

up at 4 in the morning? Like why is my baby also

Nikko Kennedy: 00:10:58

always up at 4 in the morning? And those kinds of

Nikko Kennedy: 00:11:02

things. So it can explain differences in

Nikko Kennedy: 00:11:05

behavior, but the prescription is always like the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:11:07

environment and needs to support strong and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:11:10

stable circadian rhythms.

Meredith Oke: 00:11:13

Okay, so, because that was my next question. So

Meredith Oke: 00:11:15

it's like the practical application is the same.

Meredith Oke: 00:11:20

It's just supporting us at different stages.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:11:23

Right.

Meredith Oke: 00:11:24

We really need our adolescent children to be away

Meredith Oke: 00:11:29

from that blue light or blocking that blue light

Meredith Oke: 00:11:31

at night because this is the time in their life

Meredith Oke: 00:11:33

where they're supposed to, supposed to be

Meredith Oke: 00:11:35

producing it. Melatonin in abundance.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:11:37

Yes, absolutely. Yep. It's really important.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:11:40

Melatonin is a hormone. Melatonin is an

Nikko Kennedy: 00:11:43

antioxidant. Like melatonin does so many things

Nikko Kennedy: 00:11:45

for the body's health. So yeah, absolutely. We

Nikko Kennedy: 00:11:48

really want those puberty years and childhood

Nikko Kennedy: 00:11:53

years. Yeah, ideally. And you know, really all

Nikko Kennedy: 00:11:56

the times, and that's what's so nice, is that

Nikko Kennedy: 00:11:58

it's never too late to start. Except for in the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:12:01

sense of behaviorally, it's much easier. I work

Nikko Kennedy: 00:12:05

with families in my one to one work or

Nikko Kennedy: 00:12:09

practitioners who are supporting families are

Nikko Kennedy: 00:12:11

like the main people that I work with. And so

Nikko Kennedy: 00:12:14

moms always report like, I wish I would have had

Nikko Kennedy: 00:12:16

this sooner. Because it's a lot harder to onboard

Nikko Kennedy: 00:12:19

a teenager to circadian lifestyle choices

Nikko Kennedy: 00:12:22

compared with the moms who get this earlier on.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:12:25

It is easier to raise someone up within it and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:12:30

then they can. Like my children for example. Like

Nikko Kennedy: 00:12:35

I was blessed to start playing around with this

Nikko Kennedy: 00:12:39

when I was pregnant with my first child almost 13

Nikko Kennedy: 00:12:42

years ago. So she's now approaching the teen

Nikko Kennedy: 00:12:45

years and she can look out and be like, wow, the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:12:48

kids you have video games. I feel sorry for them.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:12:54

And you know, so there are things where in some

Nikko Kennedy: 00:12:59

ways like people get more and more set in their

Nikko Kennedy: 00:13:01

habits. So like the, the coaching aspect of it is

Nikko Kennedy: 00:13:05

more difficult in later stages if you haven't

Nikko Kennedy: 00:13:08

like started it early on. But our circadian

Nikko Kennedy: 00:13:13

health is always flexible. Like there's you can

Nikko Kennedy: 00:13:16

find so many studies for that dementia, senility

Nikko Kennedy: 00:13:19

issue, even for the people who are, like, way at

Nikko Kennedy: 00:13:23

the end of life and finding benefit for them

Nikko Kennedy: 00:13:28

getting into circadian strengthening practices.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:13:33

So, yeah, I love working in this field because

Nikko Kennedy: 00:13:35

it's so effective and, you know, we can

Nikko Kennedy: 00:13:41

oftentimes, within like, two days, start to

Nikko Kennedy: 00:13:43

really feel a difference. I. I talk with. I was

Nikko Kennedy: 00:13:47

just talking with a woman recently, too, that has

Nikko Kennedy: 00:13:51

children that are teenagers that are. This is

Nikko Kennedy: 00:13:56

actually a pretty common story where the parents

Nikko Kennedy: 00:13:57

have divorced, and so one home is circadian and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:14:00

the other home isn't.

Meredith Oke: 00:14:02

Right.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:14:03

And so then she's like, every time they come

Nikko Kennedy: 00:14:06

home, it's a whole reset.

Meredith Oke: 00:14:09

Yeah.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:14:11

And. Or, like, you know, sleepovers or whatever.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:14:14

And, like, you know, could I get them to, like,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:14:16

bring blue blockers over there? Would that be

Nikko Kennedy: 00:14:17

weird? Would.

Meredith Oke: 00:14:20

Yeah, she's like, six months away from being

Meredith Oke: 00:14:22

like, pack your blue blockers, put them on. I

Meredith Oke: 00:14:24

don't care.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:14:25

Yeah, exactly. We. Yeah, we do notice. And so,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:14:30

yeah, all of. All of the, you know, you know,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:14:33

moms are especially on it. Sometimes it's the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:14:35

dads, though. Sometimes it's the dads that are

Nikko Kennedy: 00:14:37

totally, like, the circadian health champion. And

Nikko Kennedy: 00:14:39

I think that the dads usually take a little bit

Nikko Kennedy: 00:14:41

more of a proactive approach with the older

Nikko Kennedy: 00:14:44

children, whereas the moms, I think, still

Nikko Kennedy: 00:14:47

sometimes are, like, giving older children more

Nikko Kennedy: 00:14:50

autonomy at that stage of life. Just kind of like

Nikko Kennedy: 00:14:53

a general trend that's obviously not true for all

Nikko Kennedy: 00:14:55

families. But in the earlier stages, it's often

Nikko Kennedy: 00:14:57

the moms who are, like, you know, very much like,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:15:00

packing the bags to go to the park and all that

Nikko Kennedy: 00:15:02

kind of thing. So, yeah, teamwork. Teamwork.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:15:06

Circadian community.

Meredith Oke: 00:15:09

Yeah. And just. Yeah, just having people with

Meredith Oke: 00:15:12

even, like, a slight familiarity with it, you

Meredith Oke: 00:15:16

know, and it's. Things are really changing. Okay,

Meredith Oke: 00:15:18

so. Okay, so it's. Adolescence is super important

Meredith Oke: 00:15:22

now when we're talking about menopause and old

Meredith Oke: 00:15:25

age, when our melatonin decreases. Are you, you

Meredith Oke: 00:15:29

know, is it your view that there is a place for

Meredith Oke: 00:15:33

exogenous supplementation during those. Those

Meredith Oke: 00:15:35

times of life? Or should we do. Or is it more

Meredith Oke: 00:15:38

like doubling down on in our darkness?

Nikko Kennedy: 00:15:42

Yeah, that's a great. Yeah, great. Great

Nikko Kennedy: 00:15:45

question. And so that's where I teach, I guess,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:15:52

six, five or six sources of melatonin that we

Nikko Kennedy: 00:15:56

have access to. So for me, I'm always working

Nikko Kennedy: 00:16:00

with the endogenous. I am, you know, like, as a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:16:03

doula, which is, you know, a form of being a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:16:07

health coach. I'm not prescriptive So I always

Nikko Kennedy: 00:16:10

recommend people to work with a practitioner if

Nikko Kennedy: 00:16:15

they're going to supplement with melatonin,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:16:17

because for one, melatonin supplements on the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:16:19

market have been proven to be like wildly

Nikko Kennedy: 00:16:22

inaccurate in terms of like what the stated dose

Nikko Kennedy: 00:16:25

on the bottle is versus what actually it is. And

Nikko Kennedy: 00:16:29

also to have a lot of contaminants and things. So

Nikko Kennedy: 00:16:34

I'm like, you really should work with a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:16:36

practitioner who's familiar with melatonin and is

Nikko Kennedy: 00:16:39

confident in their source of melatonin and can

Nikko Kennedy: 00:16:41

work with the melatonin in addition to any other

Nikko Kennedy: 00:16:43

treatments he may be having. And there are some

Nikko Kennedy: 00:16:46

acute situations where we absolutely. I would

Nikko Kennedy: 00:16:50

never like a mom with preeclampsia, a mom who's

Nikko Kennedy: 00:16:54

having her labor augmented with pitocin, a baby

Nikko Kennedy: 00:16:58

who's in the NICU and can't breastfeed. Like

Nikko Kennedy: 00:17:02

these are three that I encounter pretty often

Nikko Kennedy: 00:17:05

where like in those cases we absolutely. For that

Nikko Kennedy: 00:17:09

acute situation, it's probably worth working with

Nikko Kennedy: 00:17:12

someone who can get that supplemental melatonin

Nikko Kennedy: 00:17:15

for a long term thing like menopause lasts many

Nikko Kennedy: 00:17:18

years. In that case, I'm a lot more likely to

Nikko Kennedy: 00:17:24

want to lean harder on the body's own ability to

Nikko Kennedy: 00:17:27

make melatonin. And so that's several ways. Like

Nikko Kennedy: 00:17:30

there is the pineal melatonin you were mentioning

Nikko Kennedy: 00:17:32

that comes out in the darkness, but we also have

Nikko Kennedy: 00:17:35

the mitochondrial melatonin which comes out any

Nikko Kennedy: 00:17:38

time of day, especially when mitochondria are

Nikko Kennedy: 00:17:40

really happy and healthy and getting infrared

Nikko Kennedy: 00:17:43

light signals. So yeah, I talk with people about

Nikko Kennedy: 00:17:46

like optimizing their thermostat is like one of

Nikko Kennedy: 00:17:50

the really low hanging fruit to like let your

Nikko Kennedy: 00:17:53

days be warmer.

Meredith Oke: 00:17:54

As much time outside as possible, even in the

Meredith Oke: 00:17:56

shade, even when it's cloudy, because that

Meredith Oke: 00:17:59

infrared light is getting us. Yeah, the daytime

Meredith Oke: 00:18:03

kind of melatonin.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:18:04

Exactly.

Meredith Oke: 00:18:05

At night, because then we're getting. Releasing

Meredith Oke: 00:18:07

the nighttime melatonin.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:18:09

Right.

Meredith Oke: 00:18:09

And then so lowering the temperature, is that

Meredith Oke: 00:18:12

what you're saying?

Nikko Kennedy: 00:18:13

Lowering the temperature at night and having a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:18:15

warmer daytime. So even for people that are

Nikko Kennedy: 00:18:17

living inside, it's like your daytime thermostat.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:18:20

A lot of people keep it low for energy

Nikko Kennedy: 00:18:22

efficiency, but like really like 72 to 76 degrees

Nikko Kennedy: 00:18:26

Fahrenheit is where like optimal human

Nikko Kennedy: 00:18:28

productivity hits. And most of us are, you know,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:18:32

you see people doing red light therapies and all

Nikko Kennedy: 00:18:34

kinds of things because we're all kind of heat

Nikko Kennedy: 00:18:36

deprived for various reasons. And then the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:18:39

nighttime sometimes might require like a air

Nikko Kennedy: 00:18:43

conditioner or something, which also is less

Nikko Kennedy: 00:18:45

energy efficient. That's one of the areas that we

Nikko Kennedy: 00:18:49

bump into a lot when it comes to like building

Nikko Kennedy: 00:18:51

design is that we are constantly trying to

Nikko Kennedy: 00:18:54

optimize for energy efficiency, for cost savings

Nikko Kennedy: 00:18:58

and pollution and all of these things that we're

Nikko Kennedy: 00:19:00

concerned about. But creating a static, thermal,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:19:05

highly efficient light is kind of like making us

Nikko Kennedy: 00:19:08

these weird moon. Think of it as like being like

Nikko Kennedy: 00:19:11

moon beings. It's kind of like just being under

Nikko Kennedy: 00:19:13

like the full moon and it's like kind of cold and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:19:16

kind of white light and kind of everyone's just

Nikko Kennedy: 00:19:19

like kind of like weird and not really sure if

Nikko Kennedy: 00:19:21

they're like super alert in a way.

Meredith Oke: 00:19:23

I forget his name. He's like going to like live

Meredith Oke: 00:19:27

forever. He look, he's literally like translucent

Meredith Oke: 00:19:30

glow. He looks like a moon. Totally a moon guy. I

Meredith Oke: 00:19:35

see what you mean.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:19:37

Yeah, yeah.

Meredith Oke: 00:19:39

So, okay, so we want to be away from that. So, so

Meredith Oke: 00:19:43

it's summer, we have, we have the AC on, but in

Meredith Oke: 00:19:47

the daytime we want to keep it up around 74 and

Meredith Oke: 00:19:49

then we go to bed. We want to put it down lower.

Meredith Oke: 00:19:51

We want to be mindful that there's a fluctuation

Meredith Oke: 00:19:55

in temperature between the day and the night.

Meredith Oke: 00:19:58

With the night being warmer, the night being

Meredith Oke: 00:20:00

cold, the day being warmer. Okay.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:02

Yeah, exactly. So that's just another form of.

Meredith Oke: 00:20:06

Supports our melatonin.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:08

Yep. And that's to support our melatonin. Yeah.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:10

And so we know like, you know, women, one of the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:12

side effects of menopause can be like the hot

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:14

flashes. And it can, you know, they can be more

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:16

sensitive to those thermal changes. And when it

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:20

comes with like. Yeah, I mean we just have so

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:23

much advice, same thing. You know, like I go, I

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:25

tend to default back because most of my work is

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:27

with mamas and babies. And so, you know, they

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:32

always tell baby like you have to have like a 70

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:34

degree room for your baby to sleep in with no

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:36

blankets and whatever. And meanwhile like for all

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:39

of history we were co sleeping and like the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:40

temperature regulation would happen on with mom

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:44

and the temperature outside would actually be

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:47

rising and falling. And so the temperature rhythm

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:49

is usually the first to emerge in a newborn baby.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:52

So at first they're like round the clock. And

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:53

then the first thing that happens is their body

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:55

starts being cooler in the night and warmer in

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:57

the day. And that's just like a really

Nikko Kennedy: 00:20:59

fundamental circadian health pattern. And I like

Nikko Kennedy: 00:21:03

to bring it up because across all stages of life

Nikko Kennedy: 00:21:06

that thermal pattern is just a really important

Nikko Kennedy: 00:21:11

piece. And if we are spending time outside, we

Nikko Kennedy: 00:21:13

naturally get it. But when we're spending so much

Nikko Kennedy: 00:21:15

of our time indoors, we don't always get that.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:21:18

So, yeah, you can see, like, I'm out here in my

Nikko Kennedy: 00:21:21

gazebo and it's lovely springtime weather. And

Nikko Kennedy: 00:21:23

you've also seen me out here bundled up in my,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:21:27

you know, sweatshirts and hoodies with a wool

Nikko Kennedy: 00:21:29

blanket on my lap. Different crazy things that

Nikko Kennedy: 00:21:33

I'm doing to keep myself, like, more enmeshed in

Nikko Kennedy: 00:21:37

nature and, you know, have done huge amount of

Nikko Kennedy: 00:21:40

work in my life to. From, like, living, you know,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:21:45

me, my husband, our one child living in, you

Nikko Kennedy: 00:21:48

know, a little apartment in the city. And it's

Nikko Kennedy: 00:21:52

great because we can walk to the park and we can

Nikko Kennedy: 00:21:53

walk to the grocery and, like, everything is,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:21:56

like, you know, really set up and nice and tight

Nikko Kennedy: 00:21:59

and convenient. And then eventually, you know,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:22:03

like, I was having a lot of immune system

Nikko Kennedy: 00:22:06

dysregulation at that time. Really, really bad

Nikko Kennedy: 00:22:09

seasonal allergies, really, really bad skin

Nikko Kennedy: 00:22:12

reactions, and resetting my circadian rhythms was

Nikko Kennedy: 00:22:19

what. Actually, I didn't even notice right away

Nikko Kennedy: 00:22:22

because I was doing it kind of like more on a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:22:24

whim, but putting, like, the red light filter on

Nikko Kennedy: 00:22:29

my computer and different things like that. It

Nikko Kennedy: 00:22:32

was like, wow, that was a really mild allergy

Nikko Kennedy: 00:22:35

year. That's great. And then the next year rolled

Nikko Kennedy: 00:22:37

by, like, wow, another just, like, allergies.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:22:40

Like, do I even have them anymore?

Meredith Oke: 00:22:42

Right?

Nikko Kennedy: 00:22:44

And it wasn't. I was like, I wasn't like, I'm

Nikko Kennedy: 00:22:46

going to use circadian health to cure my allergic

Nikko Kennedy: 00:22:48

contact dermatitis and seasonal allergies. But,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:22:52

like, you know, two and three years down the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:22:53

road, I look back and like, wow, I haven't had a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:22:55

flare since I got my, you know, light

Nikko Kennedy: 00:22:59

environment, right? And it took a long time to,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:23:02

like, get out here where I'm living now, where

Nikko Kennedy: 00:23:04

there's woods, there's space for the kids,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:23:07

they're no longer in school, we're homeschooling.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:23:11

And I. I've been entirely remote since 2014. And

Nikko Kennedy: 00:23:18

so sometimes people are like, oh, you're so

Nikko Kennedy: 00:23:19

lucky. I could never. And it's like, well, if you

Nikko Kennedy: 00:23:22

would have asked me in 2013, I might have said

Nikko Kennedy: 00:23:24

the same thing. But, like, by making. By setting

Nikko Kennedy: 00:23:28

my intention and working really, really hard,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:23:31

making certain sacrifices, like, over the years,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:23:34

like, we gradually improve and get closer and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:23:36

closer to our ideal lifestyle where we're raising

Nikko Kennedy: 00:23:39

our kids. We have plenty of time to spend with

Nikko Kennedy: 00:23:42

them. They have plenty of connection with nature.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:23:45

And all of these things that, you know, I just

Nikko Kennedy: 00:23:49

know in my being are so important because I felt

Nikko Kennedy: 00:23:52

the difference between being sick all the time,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:23:56

basically, or, like, you know, A significant

Nikko Kennedy: 00:23:58

amount of the year versus, you know, actually

Nikko Kennedy: 00:24:01

being able to enjoy springtime blossoms and not

Nikko Kennedy: 00:24:06

see that as a time of year of, like, dread of

Nikko Kennedy: 00:24:09

like, suffering. Yeah, yeah.

Meredith Oke: 00:24:12

And that's such a good point too, that. Yeah.

Meredith Oke: 00:24:15

This is like a gradual, lifelong practice.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:24:20

Yeah.

Meredith Oke: 00:24:20

So there are certain things we could, you know,

Meredith Oke: 00:24:22

if we're able to implement them right away, like,

Meredith Oke: 00:24:25

amazing. But then what I find oftentimes is once

Meredith Oke: 00:24:28

you implement some of the key basic things, you

Meredith Oke: 00:24:33

start to notice, you know, you make decisions

Meredith Oke: 00:24:37

that you could be making differently that you

Meredith Oke: 00:24:39

wouldn't even have thought of before you've done

Meredith Oke: 00:24:40

the other thing. So just like, allowing it to

Meredith Oke: 00:24:43

unfold over time.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:24:45

Mm.

Meredith Oke: 00:24:46

And allowing your lifestyle to adjust to the

Meredith Oke: 00:24:50

practice and the practice to adjust to you. And

Meredith Oke: 00:24:54

there's no, like, one way to do it. There are

Meredith Oke: 00:24:57

basic things we all need to do. Artificial light

Meredith Oke: 00:25:01

at night, getting outside during the day. But how

Meredith Oke: 00:25:06

we do that is really, you know, can be very

Meredith Oke: 00:25:09

individualized and can change and improve over

Meredith Oke: 00:25:13

time.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:25:14

Yeah, yeah. And is very, very determined by the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:25:19

environment you're in. Because, like, when I was,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:25:21

you know, living over a busy intersection, it was

Nikko Kennedy: 00:25:24

like blackout curtains all the way at night.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:25:27

Right. And now I, like, have skylights and I'm

Nikko Kennedy: 00:25:32

like, watching the moon and being up in the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:25:34

middle of the night. And like this, you know,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:25:37

like, alternating, like, somewhat polyphasic

Nikko Kennedy: 00:25:39

sleep thing. That was one of the other topics

Nikko Kennedy: 00:25:41

that sometimes people don't realize. Like, when

Nikko Kennedy: 00:25:44

you get really deep into it, you start uncovering

Nikko Kennedy: 00:25:47

all these things about biology that we just

Nikko Kennedy: 00:25:50

didn't know about, like being able to enjoy the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:25:55

light of the full moon rather than feeling as a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:25:59

time of dread. And again, that's something that,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:26:01

like, when I had a really, really strict

Nikko Kennedy: 00:26:03

schedule, there's no way that I could have felt

Nikko Kennedy: 00:26:05

okay about being awake for a couple of hours to

Nikko Kennedy: 00:26:08

enjoy the moonlight and, you know, some time with

Nikko Kennedy: 00:26:10

my spouse while the kids are all quiet and slee

Nikko Kennedy: 00:26:12

sleeping. You know, that would have been really

Nikko Kennedy: 00:26:15

stressful. I mean, I remember when it was

Nikko Kennedy: 00:26:17

stressful because I knew my alarm was going off

: 00:26:20

45 in the morning or, you know, sometimes

: 00:26:22

even earlier. Right. And so, like, when you know

: 00:26:27

that your alarm's coming at a particular time and

: 00:26:29

you're awake in the middle of the night, like,

: 00:26:31

that's so stressful. But when you're totally in

: 00:26:35

tune. And again, this is more for, like, I live

: 00:26:38

in a temperate climate, so like, my sleep tends

: 00:26:40

to shift more. Whereas people who live like,

: 00:26:44

closer to the equator, like, the light is a lot

: 00:26:47

more Consistent around the year. And so we don't

: 00:26:49

have those long dark nights of winter where we're

: 00:26:52

going to be awake.

Meredith Oke: 00:26:54

That there's. That it's somewhat normal to have

Meredith Oke: 00:26:58

periods of wakefulness in the middle of the night

Meredith Oke: 00:27:00

during certain times of the month.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:27:05

During certain times of the month.

Meredith Oke: 00:27:07

The moon based on.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:27:08

In the season and the seasons. Yeah. So basically

Nikko Kennedy: 00:27:11

whenever nighttime darkness passes 14 hours. So I

Nikko Kennedy: 00:27:16

get a lot of people who live, you know, like I

Nikko Kennedy: 00:27:19

live at 40 something degrees and higher, you

Nikko Kennedy: 00:27:22

know, 40, 50, 60 degrees latitude, then we get

Nikko Kennedy: 00:27:27

that where a significant amount of the year we

Nikko Kennedy: 00:27:29

have this 14 hours of darkness. And this was

Nikko Kennedy: 00:27:31

discovered by the same lab that eventually put

Nikko Kennedy: 00:27:34

out the idea of using seasonal, of using like the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:27:37

SAD lamps for seasonal affective disorder is

Nikko Kennedy: 00:27:40

they're like, oh, light controls sleep timing.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:27:43

And so if there's more than 14 hours of this

Nikko Kennedy: 00:27:46

really dim environment, people will naturally

Nikko Kennedy: 00:27:49

shift into a polyphasic sleep pattern which is

Nikko Kennedy: 00:27:53

actually just like what the animals. And like

Nikko Kennedy: 00:27:55

there was a really amazing study that just came

Nikko Kennedy: 00:27:56

out this year that's one of the most

Nikko Kennedy: 00:27:58

comprehensive sleep studies that's ever been done

Nikko Kennedy: 00:28:01

on people living in non industrial societies

Nikko Kennedy: 00:28:04

versus industrial. And so it's really interesting

Nikko Kennedy: 00:28:07

that we have this idea of 8 hours of sleep as

Nikko Kennedy: 00:28:09

being the norm and like beneficial. And these old

Nikko Kennedy: 00:28:13

sleep researchers and what they see happening in

Nikko Kennedy: 00:28:16

societies that don't live this, you know, modern

Nikko Kennedy: 00:28:19

technological way is that that's not actually a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:28:24

human normal, that's the, it's an artifact of 16

Nikko Kennedy: 00:28:27

hours of artificial light. So that was a total

Nikko Kennedy: 00:28:32

like mind blowing moment for me as a mom because

Nikko Kennedy: 00:28:37

I have worked with so many moms who are like

Nikko Kennedy: 00:28:39

trying to care for their babies around the clock,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:28:41

but they're like, I was in bed for 10 hours,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:28:46

like, why do I feel so tired still? It's like

Nikko Kennedy: 00:28:49

they're getting woken up over and over. And so if

Nikko Kennedy: 00:28:51

you just allow yourself more time in bed and a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:28:54

more gentle. So oftentimes it's more like six

Nikko Kennedy: 00:28:58

hours of sleep with a 20 minute to two hour nap

Nikko Kennedy: 00:29:02

at a different time of day. So if it's like if

Nikko Kennedy: 00:29:05

you have 16 hours of darkness in the winter, you

Nikko Kennedy: 00:29:07

might sleep for four hours, wake up for like two,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:29:10

two hours, go to sleep for another four hours and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:29:12

then get up. So that middle of the night waking

Nikko Kennedy: 00:29:16

is really stressful for people because they're

Nikko Kennedy: 00:29:18

like, my circadian health was so good, why am I

Nikko Kennedy: 00:29:21

not sleeping eight hours? Well, because your

Nikko Kennedy: 00:29:25

environment, circadian health is so good.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:29:28

Exactly. And then it's especially back to your.

Meredith Oke: 00:29:30

Ancestral way of sleeping.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:29:32

Yep, exactly. So yeah, usually like one like four

Nikko Kennedy: 00:29:36

to six hour block that overlaps. The natural

Nikko Kennedy: 00:29:38

darkness is like a stable necessity across all of

Nikko Kennedy: 00:29:43

human time.

Meredith Oke: 00:29:45

Okay. And then so yeah, it's not like you need

Meredith Oke: 00:29:48

eight. So eight hours in a row is not the gold

Meredith Oke: 00:29:50

standard. The gold standard is four to six in a

Meredith Oke: 00:29:53

row while it's dark outside.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:29:55

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And then the other part as

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:00

needed. Yep, exactly. And the nap kind of shifts

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:03

like we all know about like the siesta. Right.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:04

And so like in the summertime you have this

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:06

endless long day. And so it can like in the above

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:10

the Arctic Circle, traditionally it was like four

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:13

hours of sleep about midnight, four hours of

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:14

sleep around noon, like a totally biphasic sleep

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:17

pattern. And then like, you know, areas that have

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:21

the siesta, it's a little bit more temperate of a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:23

climate. So it's like you have your main sleep

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:26

and then you have a shorter sleep in the heat,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:28

you know, through the heat of the day and the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:30

shade and then like going on and you don't even

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:33

ness in that second sleep. Depending on the time

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:36

of year, sometimes you're just like closing your

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:38

eyes for 20 minutes and it's just kind of like a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:39

gentle drift and then you just drift back in and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:41

you go. It's not always like a full, full blown

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:45

nap. Right. But that just having more flexibility

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:48

with that, like it doesn't really fit with like a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:50

schedule of a 9 to 5. And you were talking about

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:53

puberty and like when I was growing up, I went to

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:56

public school and lived in a remote area where

Nikko Kennedy: 00:30:59

the bus ride was over an hour. So it was like

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:01

catching the bus at 6:20 in the morning. And so

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:05

it was like alarms at 5 through my puberty years.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:07

And those were the only years that I ever had

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:09

insomnia. And I'm like, you know, looking back

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:11

and like all of the stress and like thinking

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:13

about the lighting that we had and the sports and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:16

like working out like right before bed and all of

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:19

these things that, right. I was doing like trying

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:21

to be healthy, trying to be good, trying to like

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:23

have a straight A student doing the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:25

extracurriculars and you know, like immediately

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:28

waking on, flipping on those bright lights and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:31

you know, being up at those times. And it's just

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:34

so stressful to the circadian rhythm. And a lot

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:38

of people just think of the circadian rhythm as

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:40

being like, I do the same thing every day. So

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:44

that's one of the other things that I'm always

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:46

like, sleep is an effect of the circadian rhythm.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:49

It doesn't cause the circadian rhythm. It's. And

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:51

keeping the same exact schedule day to day

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:53

doesn't necessarily mean that you have, you could

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:56

have a stable circadian rhythm, but it doesn't

Nikko Kennedy: 00:31:58

necessarily mean that it's a strong circadian

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:00

rhythm. So kind of making those differentiations.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:02

And obviously I've gone really far in order to

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:06

allow myself and my family a very, very flexible

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:09

circadian environment that like, like I said, if

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:11

you would have asked me in like 2013, like this

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:15

would not have been possible. Like my, like I

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:17

said, my alarm was set for 4, 24, 30 in the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:20

morning because I was working east coast from PA

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:23

that I could wake up before my daughter, daughter

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:25

get my work done, take, you know, my lunch break

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:29

would be getting her around, getting her up for

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:31

breakfast and all of that. Right. And like just

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:34

my life was very different then. So I completely

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:36

understand for the people who are like, no way, I

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:38

could never do that. Like, you know, there's no

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:41

way that I could be that flexible. There's no way

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:43

that I can nap. Same thing. Like moms who have

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:46

two toddlers, it's really difficult for them to

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:49

nap my life because of not putting my older kids

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:52

in school. They're like a whole pack, right? So

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:55

if there's a 13 year old around and my husband

Nikko Kennedy: 00:32:57

can also work from home when he does have events,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:33:00

they're, you know, we deal with that. But they're

Nikko Kennedy: 00:33:03

usually evening because he's a musician, which is

Nikko Kennedy: 00:33:05

another one. Like musicians get such a bad rap in

Nikko Kennedy: 00:33:07

the world. You know, people who are circadian

Nikko Kennedy: 00:33:09

savvy are always like, oh, musicians have the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:33:12

worst circadian rhythm because they're always out

Nikko Kennedy: 00:33:14

at night. And so like the things that we've done

Nikko Kennedy: 00:33:16

to, to figure out that like if he has a night

Nikko Kennedy: 00:33:18

gig, we're gonna make priority. Like my husband's

Nikko Kennedy: 00:33:21

gonna have a nap in the afternoon to prepare for

Nikko Kennedy: 00:33:24

the sleep disruption he's gonna get at night. And

Nikko Kennedy: 00:33:27

then like figuring out the commute times of

Nikko Kennedy: 00:33:29

everything so that he does get a period of sleep.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:33:31

It overlaps the darkness. Even if he is, you

Nikko Kennedy: 00:33:35

know, playing until two in the morning. Right. So

Nikko Kennedy: 00:33:41

he has the nap before.

Meredith Oke: 00:33:42

This is like a really important point because we,

Meredith Oke: 00:33:46

you know, we're used to doing this level of

Meredith Oke: 00:33:48

planning around eating, right? It's like going on

Meredith Oke: 00:33:51

a trip or taking our children. We need to, we

Meredith Oke: 00:33:54

account for the meal times. We account, okay,

Meredith Oke: 00:33:56

well how we're going to feed and be like, okay,

Meredith Oke: 00:33:58

well we can do like do a restaurant or some fast

Meredith Oke: 00:34:00

food, but no more than, you know, we did a day of

Meredith Oke: 00:34:04

that. Like, we have to get somewhere we can cook

Meredith Oke: 00:34:06

and, you know, like, we think about. And it's not

Meredith Oke: 00:34:09

a big deal that, of course, you plan around food.

Meredith Oke: 00:34:12

And what I hear that your family has done is to

Meredith Oke: 00:34:15

do that same thing with light and circadian

Meredith Oke: 00:34:18

rhythm and to take it. Take that into account and

Meredith Oke: 00:34:23

make it just as an important A factor.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:34:26

Right. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Keeping the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:34:30

environment there, keeping the schedule there.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:34:34

Yeah. And like you said, food, like, that's a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:34:36

really big, important cue. Yeah. For the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:34:40

circadian rhythm. So regular meal times is really

Nikko Kennedy: 00:34:43

important. I would maybe argue even more

Nikko Kennedy: 00:34:46

important than the regular sleep times. Just the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:34:49

way the digestive system works. Yeah. So having

Nikko Kennedy: 00:34:52

that.

Meredith Oke: 00:34:52

So having. Having breakfast within what, like a

Meredith Oke: 00:34:57

certain period of time upon waking and.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:34:59

Yeah, before.

Meredith Oke: 00:35:01

Okay, so tell us what your optimal would be.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:35:04

Yeah, again, it's. There's flexibility, but,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:35:08

like, optimal flexibility in all things. Yeah.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:35:11

Getting that savory, like, shifting to a savory

Nikko Kennedy: 00:35:14

breakfast. And something I always talk about,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:35:18

too, is, like, that I do find that there is a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:35:21

significant component of heat and warm food

Nikko Kennedy: 00:35:25

because a lot of people like to have a cold

Nikko Kennedy: 00:35:27

breakfast because it's convenient. And I totally

Nikko Kennedy: 00:35:29

understand. And so sometimes we will do like a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:35:32

first breakfast, second breakfast kind of thing

Nikko Kennedy: 00:35:34

just based on the way the day needs to flow. But

Nikko Kennedy: 00:35:38

as a rule, I really like to get at least one

Nikko Kennedy: 00:35:42

solid warm meal in the morning for getting the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:35:47

full, like, you know, belly weight and like, just

Nikko Kennedy: 00:35:51

the warmth of nourishment. So this is a lot of my

Nikko Kennedy: 00:35:55

work in exploring polyphasic circadian is through

Nikko Kennedy: 00:36:01

work that was actually done by the Navy. And so I

Nikko Kennedy: 00:36:05

think we talked a little bit about this before,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:36:09

but the Navy has an incredible amount of control

Nikko Kennedy: 00:36:11

over their sailors, and so they've been able to

Nikko Kennedy: 00:36:14

do some incredible research. They also had some

Nikko Kennedy: 00:36:17

horrible tragedies based on sailors being really

Nikko Kennedy: 00:36:20

sleep deprived. And so they had really strong

Nikko Kennedy: 00:36:24

need to figure out circadian health because the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:36:27

ship has to operate around the clock.

Meredith Oke: 00:36:29

Right. So that's where research that came out. I

Meredith Oke: 00:36:33

forget sometime in the past five to 10 years that

Meredith Oke: 00:36:35

shows sleep deprivation was, like, at the state,

Meredith Oke: 00:36:38

you might as well be drunk.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:36:39

Yep, exactly.

Meredith Oke: 00:36:40

If you're driving or operating something

Meredith Oke: 00:36:42

important like a ship.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:36:43

Yes, exactly. So I always think about this, too,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:36:46

in terms of, like, our ERs.

Meredith Oke: 00:36:49

Yeah, yeah.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:36:53

Sure.

Meredith Oke: 00:36:53

If you get him on hours, 16 of his shift.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:36:56

Yeah, exactly.

Meredith Oke: 00:36:57

Basically had nine margaritas.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:36:59

Yeah, so.

Meredith Oke: 00:37:04

Okay, maybe not exactly, but.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:06

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, yeah, so that's where I

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:11

learned about the it's really important to have,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:14

like, they want to get their sailors to have

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:16

their at least one of those solid sleepover

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:18

windows overlapping the natural darkness. That's

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:20

where I found that from. And have tested and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:25

experimented with it and found that, yes, that is

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:27

really true. You know, some people will say,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:30

like, an hour of sleep before midnight is worth

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:32

more than two hours afterwards. Or, like,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:33

different little, like, aphorisms you might have

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:35

heard around this idea. Because lots of people,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:37

like, it's just the thing about circadian health

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:40

is, like, it's so obvious. So, like, at first

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:42

it's really counterintuitive. And you're like,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:44

okay, I'm gonna try this. We're like, okay,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:46

we've, like, went outside, we watched sunrise,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:49

and we turned off all the lights. Like, what's

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:51

this like? And we're, like, sitting there by

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:52

candlelight and like, oh, this is really dark,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:55

but it's kind of atmospheric. And pretty soon,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:37:58

like, the kids are, like, all drowsy and sleepy

Nikko Kennedy: 00:38:00

and, like, ready to sing a song and go to sleep.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:38:04

And then eventually, like, you know, everyone

Nikko Kennedy: 00:38:06

gets on board, and then you start pouring into

Nikko Kennedy: 00:38:08

others. Like, a moment when a lot of families

Nikko Kennedy: 00:38:12

reach out and they're super proud. They're like,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:38:14

hey, I feel so cool. I just got red light tape

Nikko Kennedy: 00:38:17

and put it over my refrigerators and my fans and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:38:21

my VC or, you know, whatever appliances, and it's

Nikko Kennedy: 00:38:27

like a milestone moment.

Meredith Oke: 00:38:28

Crossed the Rubicon when you put red tape over

Meredith Oke: 00:38:31

the light in your fridge. I was FaceTiming with

Meredith Oke: 00:38:34

someone recently, and.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:38:35

I was walking around.

Meredith Oke: 00:38:37

It was a friend. It was so. It was casual. And I

Meredith Oke: 00:38:39

opened the fridge while we were talking, and she

Meredith Oke: 00:38:41

was like, what is that? Oh, the red electrical

Meredith Oke: 00:38:48

tape over the light. She's like, you really take

Meredith Oke: 00:38:52

this seriously, don't you? I'm like, yeah, I

Meredith Oke: 00:38:54

really do.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:38:55

Yes. And once you feel it, like, you just

Nikko Kennedy: 00:39:00

understand it, and it's so visceral, like, for

Nikko Kennedy: 00:39:04

people who are, you know, health coaches or

Nikko Kennedy: 00:39:07

practitioners listening to this, like, it's

Nikko Kennedy: 00:39:09

really cool because the, like, adoption rate and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:39:13

people actually sticking through with this is,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:39:15

like, so high compared with, like, I don't know,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:39:21

like, exercise or diet. You know what I mean?

Meredith Oke: 00:39:24

The circadian rhythm. Habit changes.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:39:27

Yes.

Meredith Oke: 00:39:27

Yeah, exactly. You know, that's. I mean, my

Meredith Oke: 00:39:29

experience is all anecdotal. I haven't tracked

Meredith Oke: 00:39:31

it, but it. That seems. That feels very true.

Meredith Oke: 00:39:33

It's like, once people experience what it's like

Meredith Oke: 00:39:36

to go to sleep and wake up in a circadian

Meredith Oke: 00:39:41

optimized, like, there is no going back because

Meredith Oke: 00:39:43

it's so. It is relatively easy compared to

Meredith Oke: 00:39:46

anything else. And yeah, it's just like, oh,

Meredith Oke: 00:39:49

yeah, I could feel like this in the morning.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:39:51

Wake up without the sandman, without a headache,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:39:55

really, because, yeah, I remember when I thought

Nikko Kennedy: 00:39:57

it was just normal, like, oh, morning suck.

Meredith Oke: 00:40:00

Yeah, same for years. And then, like, I forced

Meredith Oke: 00:40:04

myself out of it because I'm like, I don't want

Meredith Oke: 00:40:06

my children to grow up thinking that mommy is

Meredith Oke: 00:40:10

terrible in the morning and that mornings are

Meredith Oke: 00:40:11

terrible. Like, that's not. That's not a legacy

Meredith Oke: 00:40:15

I'd like to leave. So I forced myself out of it.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:40:20

Yeah.

Meredith Oke: 00:40:21

But it wasn't until the circadian rhythm stuff

Meredith Oke: 00:40:23

that I was like, oh, I just naturally happy in

Meredith Oke: 00:40:26

the morning. Now I'm not talking. I don't want to

Meredith Oke: 00:40:30

super engage with anyone the first 30 to 40

Meredith Oke: 00:40:33

minutes, but I'm not grumpy.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:40:37

Yeah, it's a big difference.

Meredith Oke: 00:40:39

A big difference.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:40:40

Yeah. So I love that too. That was during the. I

Nikko Kennedy: 00:40:47

haven't done very much school with my kids

Nikko Kennedy: 00:40:49

because it's never been something that just

Nikko Kennedy: 00:40:52

worked out. But my oldest, I did try school

Nikko Kennedy: 00:40:54

several times, and that was one of the big

Nikko Kennedy: 00:40:57

hurdles for me is that she was not happy with

Nikko Kennedy: 00:41:01

getting woken up at the same time every day. And

Nikko Kennedy: 00:41:03

it just felt so right.

Meredith Oke: 00:41:05

You mean sending her to school versus homeschool?

Nikko Kennedy: 00:41:08

Yeah, exactly. Like, with homeschool, I can match

Nikko Kennedy: 00:41:13

her activities and responsibilities with her

Nikko Kennedy: 00:41:18

energy level that day. And when it was school, it

Nikko Kennedy: 00:41:23

was like, if it's Math day, it's Math Day, and it

Nikko Kennedy: 00:41:29

happens at this time.

Meredith Oke: 00:41:32

My son has AP chemistry at. At 7:50am and I'm

Meredith Oke: 00:41:38

like, you know, sorry about that.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:41:42

Yeah, exactly. And I remember what that was like.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:41:46

And when I was in the, like, flow of it, it was

Nikko Kennedy: 00:41:48

like a challenge. I was like, okay. You know,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:41:50

like, every day just felt like a race. And it was

Nikko Kennedy: 00:41:52

like, okay. And I was working hard and, you know,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:41:54

I was satisfied. It was. It was fine for that

Nikko Kennedy: 00:41:56

time. But it's not like, once I became a mom and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:42:01

saw like, the challenge, and I'm talking about,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:42:02

like, kindergarten. Right. This is when I was

Nikko Kennedy: 00:42:05

going through this and being like, oh, it is. You

Nikko Kennedy: 00:42:08

know, it is 7am and we have to get to school by

Nikko Kennedy: 00:42:11

8:30, I really better wake her up. And she really

Nikko Kennedy: 00:42:13

doesn't want to. And she really doesn't want to

Nikko Kennedy: 00:42:15

eat breakfast because I just woke her up and I

Nikko Kennedy: 00:42:17

didn't, you know, I hadn't, like, taken her out

Nikko Kennedy: 00:42:20

to the sun yet. It was like, straight from, like,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:42:23

bedroom, bathroom, kitchen table for breakfast.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:42:26

And like, have seen and talked with so many

Nikko Kennedy: 00:42:29

parents too, where they're like, how do you get

Nikko Kennedy: 00:42:30

your kids to eat breakfast? They're just like,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:42:36

you know, so groggy. So, you know, and it's just

Nikko Kennedy: 00:42:42

amazing, like when you get into a little, you

Nikko Kennedy: 00:42:44

know, for me, I am doing this very flexible thing

Nikko Kennedy: 00:42:48

with them. And so they, you know, generally are

Nikko Kennedy: 00:42:51

pretty excited about whatever thing they're going

Nikko Kennedy: 00:42:53

to do because it's just like in time. And so it's

Nikko Kennedy: 00:42:56

more like we, you know, math time still comes

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:00

around. It's not like it doesn't, but it's not

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:05

like I'm like, yep, every, you know, Every

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:09

Tuesday at 8:45am she's going to be totally fed

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:13

and happy and ready to digest some new math

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:15

skills.

Meredith Oke: 00:43:16

Yeah.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:18

And so, yeah, for lots of people they'd be like,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:20

no, that's way too impractical. I can't handle

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:22

that, you know, level of upheaval and everything.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:25

And I, you know, totally understand that. So I do

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:27

tailor, we talk or how do we say, sometimes like

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:32

titrate, titrate the information. Right. So I'm

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:35

not like telling people who are just getting into

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:37

this who like are, you know, maybe they're just

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:40

going to dim their evening lights and that's

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:43

going to help them all sleep a little bit better

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:44

and have a better time with that 7am breakfast,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:47

out to school and work and everything. And that's

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:50

fine. Like, it's not like you have to go all the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:52

way into it. You can, you know, use light. Like

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:55

we were talking about the seasonal affective

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:57

disorder and using the light. So like, you know,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:43:59

we can use artificial light and the artificial

Nikko Kennedy: 00:44:05

thermostat. It's not like I don't use heat in my

Nikko Kennedy: 00:44:08

house to be like totally primal with nature.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:44:10

Right. We still like our creature comforts and so

Nikko Kennedy: 00:44:13

finding the right balance and that's like, you

Nikko Kennedy: 00:44:16

know, just kind of like step by step trying out

Nikko Kennedy: 00:44:18

different things and feeling how all the pieces

Nikko Kennedy: 00:44:21

fit together and you know, the different seasons

Nikko Kennedy: 00:44:24

of life and all of that works. And then one of

Nikko Kennedy: 00:44:30

the other things that I was hoping we'd have a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:44:31

chance to talk about today is like, how do we as

Nikko Kennedy: 00:44:38

circadian savvy people then choose to work on the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:44:41

computer?

Meredith Oke: 00:44:42

Yes, yes, that's, that's a big one. And yeah,

Meredith Oke: 00:44:48

let's talk about it. I also want to say, because

Meredith Oke: 00:44:51

I can feel people worried about my son. He goes

Meredith Oke: 00:44:58

outside when he wakes up, then he eats a nice

Meredith Oke: 00:45:01

protein breakfast and then he has like a 20

Meredith Oke: 00:45:03

minute walk to school.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:45:05

Oh, perfect.

Meredith Oke: 00:45:05

During rain we drive him. But so I'm like, is

Meredith Oke: 00:45:10

your brain awake by the time you get there? He's

Meredith Oke: 00:45:13

like, yeah, mostly we do. Yeah, you know, do you

Meredith Oke: 00:45:18

know we do do our best because you have totally

Meredith Oke: 00:45:21

changed your life and doing like homeschooling

Meredith Oke: 00:45:25

and living in a rural area, which is amazing. And

Meredith Oke: 00:45:28

I love hearing how you have done that and how you

Meredith Oke: 00:45:31

plan your day and how you plan your life. And

Meredith Oke: 00:45:35

then I, I'm more in like closer to the quote

Meredith Oke: 00:45:38

unquote normal, normal type of thing. My kids are

Meredith Oke: 00:45:41

in public school. We, you know, we moved after

Meredith Oke: 00:45:46

we'd been steeped in this. So we were like

Meredith Oke: 00:45:49

purposely chose a house that was outside of the

Meredith Oke: 00:45:52

middle of town and close to a forest preserve so

Meredith Oke: 00:45:56

we can have our outdoor time and. Or not near a

Meredith Oke: 00:45:59

whole bunch of other neighbors and things. But

Meredith Oke: 00:46:02

yeah, I mean as we were saying, we all make our,

Meredith Oke: 00:46:05

make our choices and do our best. That being

Meredith Oke: 00:46:07

said, we also work on our computers all day long.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:46:12

Yeah. So it's like the double whammy of light,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:46:19

light pollution, EMF and being sedentary are like

Nikko Kennedy: 00:46:23

the really big circadian health challenges there.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:46:28

So yeah, I've been doing it for a long time and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:46:30

have had phases where it has been absolutely

Nikko Kennedy: 00:46:35

terrible. Like I said, kind of like that

Nikko Kennedy: 00:46:38

catalyzing moment where I like got the red screen

Nikko Kennedy: 00:46:47

filter that would automatically start blocking

Nikko Kennedy: 00:46:49

blue light at sunset on my screen. And that was a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:46:54

huge game changing moment where I suddenly was

Nikko Kennedy: 00:46:59

not feeling as motivated was how I first

Nikko Kennedy: 00:47:02

perceived it. Because with these lights it gives

Nikko Kennedy: 00:47:07

us a cortisol boost. And when you stay up past a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:47:11

certain level your body like squeezes itself so

Nikko Kennedy: 00:47:14

it gives you that adrenal adrenaline kind of

Nikko Kennedy: 00:47:16

boost which is actually kind of addicting. So

Nikko Kennedy: 00:47:21

when I first got my, actually when my husband

Nikko Kennedy: 00:47:24

first installed the red light automatic filter on

Nikko Kennedy: 00:47:29

my computer and I lost the motivation that I had

Nikko Kennedy: 00:47:34

for like that end of work surge because like I

Nikko Kennedy: 00:47:37

said like at that time like I was a new mom. I

Nikko Kennedy: 00:47:42

was going to school full time online and had a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:47:44

full time online job. So it was really actually

Nikko Kennedy: 00:47:50

super disruptive. But it ended up being in a good

Nikko Kennedy: 00:47:53

way. But like I said, it was like.

Meredith Oke: 00:47:55

My life is set up where I have to be productive

Meredith Oke: 00:47:58

on my computer at night. And now with these

Meredith Oke: 00:48:01

optimized environments, my fatigue is real, I'm

Meredith Oke: 00:48:05

tired, can't work.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:48:09

Exactly. So I found that I had to drop to part

Nikko Kennedy: 00:48:13

time school and like for people that know me,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:48:16

they know that I do a good job at whatever I do

Nikko Kennedy: 00:48:20

and so concur.

Meredith Oke: 00:48:24

And.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:48:24

I'm, I'm not trying to brag, I'm just like, I

Nikko Kennedy: 00:48:26

have, like I have.

Meredith Oke: 00:48:27

To do things hardwired to over deliver and that's

Meredith Oke: 00:48:32

just how they are.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:48:34

So. Yeah. And I had my baby before I had finished

Nikko Kennedy: 00:48:38

my degree. And so this is something many people

Nikko Kennedy: 00:48:42

may not know about me, but I actually dropped out

Nikko Kennedy: 00:48:44

of college four times before I finished. And so

Nikko Kennedy: 00:48:48

this was one of those times where I was like,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:48:50

well, I'm gonna have to pull back from this for

Nikko Kennedy: 00:48:55

now and put it off. Like, I really wanted to have

Nikko Kennedy: 00:48:58

that finality and finish and move into the next

Nikko Kennedy: 00:49:00

stage of my career. And it took me a lot longer

Nikko Kennedy: 00:49:03

than I wanted to in terms of like those

Nikko Kennedy: 00:49:05

sacrifices that I had to make to get where I am

Nikko Kennedy: 00:49:08

now. So one of the, this is amazing.

Meredith Oke: 00:49:12

Though because most of the time people at that

Meredith Oke: 00:49:16

age, I don't know exactly how, how old you are at

Meredith Oke: 00:49:18

this time, but probably in your twenties. Right

Meredith Oke: 00:49:21

Though that is a time where most of us will

Meredith Oke: 00:49:25

sacrifice everything health related for.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:49:28

Yeah.

Meredith Oke: 00:49:29

For those external factors, for career ambitions

Meredith Oke: 00:49:34

and all of the things. I certainly did. I do

Meredith Oke: 00:49:38

believe we're starting to pay the price. Earlier,

Meredith Oke: 00:49:40

like I went into mitochondrial dysfunction in my

Meredith Oke: 00:49:43

30s, so there you go. But I'm so interested in

Meredith Oke: 00:49:47

the fact that you were. That you made the choice

Meredith Oke: 00:49:49

to prioritize your health and well being.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:49:54

And to.

Meredith Oke: 00:49:54

Delay these goals, not let them go, just put them

Meredith Oke: 00:49:57

on a timeline that was going to work for your

Meredith Oke: 00:49:59

biology.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:50:01

Exactly. Yeah. So I did eventually finish my

Nikko Kennedy: 00:50:04

degree. So, you know, that was great. It just

Nikko Kennedy: 00:50:07

took longer than I thought and I was able to do

Nikko Kennedy: 00:50:10

it.

Meredith Oke: 00:50:10

In a way that was that because you are, you are

Meredith Oke: 00:50:13

hardworking, you are ambitious, you do like to

Meredith Oke: 00:50:16

get things done and do them properly. How did you

Meredith Oke: 00:50:18

get to the point where you're like, you know what

Meredith Oke: 00:50:20

I am, I'm going to slow this down, I'm going to

Meredith Oke: 00:50:23

slow my roll on this.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:50:25

Yeah, well, part of it is like I said that, that

Nikko Kennedy: 00:50:28

wanting to deliver. And so to me, and you know, I

Nikko Kennedy: 00:50:32

have peers and colleagues and people I really

Nikko Kennedy: 00:50:35

care about and they were totally fine. And what

Nikko Kennedy: 00:50:38

was the saying back then, D's get degrees.

Meredith Oke: 00:50:45

I, I know, I know it is. C's to get degrees. I

Meredith Oke: 00:50:47

think D's is really okay, but okay.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:50:50

Right.

Meredith Oke: 00:50:51

They're like, whatever, you just do what.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:50:54

You have to do. And that just couldn't sit. I

Nikko Kennedy: 00:50:57

just, I just couldn't do that. So I had to, you

Nikko Kennedy: 00:51:01

know, fully disengage and then reengage. When I

Nikko Kennedy: 00:51:04

did have the energy for it. And that's something

Nikko Kennedy: 00:51:08

that I've found, you know, also fits with kind of

Nikko Kennedy: 00:51:12

maybe how I've ended up in this very extreme end

Nikko Kennedy: 00:51:14

of like wintertime polyphasic. So sleep being

Nikko Kennedy: 00:51:17

something that is like, good for me because I'm

Nikko Kennedy: 00:51:19

like, if the moon's up and it's beautiful and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:51:24

it's like crisp and frosty and the stars are

Nikko Kennedy: 00:51:27

sparkly and my fire is crackling and my husband

Nikko Kennedy: 00:51:29

also happens to be awake, like, we're gonna get

Nikko Kennedy: 00:51:31

up and have some fun right now and like hang out

Nikko Kennedy: 00:51:34

together. And like, all the kids are sleeping.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:51:36

This is absolutely great. And if it means that

Nikko Kennedy: 00:51:39

6am is gonna roll around and I'm still gonna

Nikko Kennedy: 00:51:41

sleep, that fits with my energetic flow. And so I

Nikko Kennedy: 00:51:48

think similarly with that, you know, decision at

Nikko Kennedy: 00:51:52

that time to pull back from my college, keep the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:51:54

work because I needed the work. But eventually I

Nikko Kennedy: 00:51:59

did quit that job too. The east coast from

Nikko Kennedy: 00:52:01

Pacific 1 and move into freelancing, where I was

Nikko Kennedy: 00:52:05

able to control my schedule. Those things happen

Nikko Kennedy: 00:52:07

pretty quickly. So I was like, okay, nighttime

Nikko Kennedy: 00:52:10

night school's not working. That's when I'm

Nikko Kennedy: 00:52:13

waking up at 4 in the morning and I can't give up

Nikko Kennedy: 00:52:15

before in the morning. So I'm gonna quit the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:52:16

night school for now, pick it up later. And then

Nikko Kennedy: 00:52:21

I was like, okay, I definitely can figure out

Nikko Kennedy: 00:52:25

this freelancing thing to have a job where I can

Nikko Kennedy: 00:52:28

work on my own time. And so fairly quickly, like

Nikko Kennedy: 00:52:33

the first month, I think, or the first year, I

Nikko Kennedy: 00:52:35

remember like mapping it out. Like, the first

Nikko Kennedy: 00:52:37

year, I earned like $5,000 less than I had the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:52:40

year that I'd had that job. So it was kind of a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:52:42

loss. But then the next year, I earned like twice

Nikko Kennedy: 00:52:44

as much as I'd had with that job. So it was like

Nikko Kennedy: 00:52:47

the short term loss was more than made up for in

Nikko Kennedy: 00:52:51

the long term, like taking control of my schedule

Nikko Kennedy: 00:52:56

and taking control of my work life. And that was

Nikko Kennedy: 00:52:59

when I was like, you know, from then on I've been

Nikko Kennedy: 00:53:01

like, fairly entrepreneurial, doing various

Nikko Kennedy: 00:53:04

things online to figure out how to not have

Nikko Kennedy: 00:53:09

someone saying that they want me to show up at

Nikko Kennedy: 00:53:11

5:25am for a meeting, you know, so then once all

Nikko Kennedy: 00:53:19

of that was like rolling and I felt like I had a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:53:22

consistent freelancing business. Then at that

Nikko Kennedy: 00:53:24

point, I went back to school part time. Right. So

Nikko Kennedy: 00:53:28

it's just kind of like for me learning to tune

Nikko Kennedy: 00:53:32

in, to follow my energetic flow and like, know

Nikko Kennedy: 00:53:35

when I have energy to like, push. Like right now

Nikko Kennedy: 00:53:38

I'm in my third trimester. Of pregnancy. I've

Nikko Kennedy: 00:53:41

been through like my second trimester and I've

Nikko Kennedy: 00:53:43

been so motivated. But like my first trimester,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:53:46

it was like I had to rest during that phase. So

Nikko Kennedy: 00:53:49

it's taken me a long time to like get comfortable

Nikko Kennedy: 00:53:51

with that. Because of that, we tend to want to

Nikko Kennedy: 00:53:54

just drive and drive and drive and drive and have

Nikko Kennedy: 00:53:56

everything be predictable. And so I've learned

Nikko Kennedy: 00:53:58

how to be a little bit more flexible, a lot more

Nikko Kennedy: 00:54:02

flexible with my own ebb and flow and to trust

Nikko Kennedy: 00:54:05

that I'll be able to catch up and have those

Nikko Kennedy: 00:54:06

times where I'm going to surge and push and make

Nikko Kennedy: 00:54:08

huge advances. And then other times where I'm

Nikko Kennedy: 00:54:10

going to withdraw and I'm going to take things

Nikko Kennedy: 00:54:12

slower and fill in, you know, my body's needs and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:54:16

you know, maybe sleep until after 8 in the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:54:19

morning, which for a mom with four kids I'd be

Nikko Kennedy: 00:54:22

like, what? How can you do that?

Meredith Oke: 00:54:25

Yeah, no, that's like sleeping till noon for a

Meredith Oke: 00:54:29

non parent.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:54:31

Yeah.

Meredith Oke: 00:54:32

You know, I just really love how you are modeling

Meredith Oke: 00:54:36

how to have a, you know, create a life that is in

Meredith Oke: 00:54:42

alignment with, you know, the natural rhythms of

Meredith Oke: 00:54:46

nature, of the seasons, of your body. And I'm

Meredith Oke: 00:54:49

really thinking about, based on what you just

Meredith Oke: 00:54:52

said, how many people, how often we feel like

Meredith Oke: 00:54:55

there's something wrong or we're doing something

Meredith Oke: 00:54:58

wrong if we're not able to stay in that hyper

Meredith Oke: 00:55:01

productive.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:55:02

Yeah.

Meredith Oke: 00:55:03

Mode all the time. And we're not meant to, you

Meredith Oke: 00:55:09

know. And so I love that you're modeling how to

Meredith Oke: 00:55:13

be at peace with that. And it's like, you know,

Meredith Oke: 00:55:16

yeah, sometimes we move forward and make quantum

Meredith Oke: 00:55:18

leaps and other times it's like we just take care

Meredith Oke: 00:55:21

of the basics. And I think that's an important,

Meredith Oke: 00:55:25

you know, thing to remember in life. It's like,

Meredith Oke: 00:55:30

you know, when I was growing up, it was always

Meredith Oke: 00:55:32

like all of the media around getting your period.

Meredith Oke: 00:55:37

Right. Like all of the ads, like take this or use

Meredith Oke: 00:55:41

this and so that you don't have to slow down, you

Meredith Oke: 00:55:44

don't have to change anything. You could stay

Meredith Oke: 00:55:45

doing all the things you do all the rest of the

Meredith Oke: 00:55:47

time, even when you have your period. And it

Meredith Oke: 00:55:49

wasn't until later in life that I started to get

Meredith Oke: 00:55:51

educated on the fact that like you're maybe

Meredith Oke: 00:55:54

you're not supposed to be at that level all the

Meredith Oke: 00:55:57

time. And there are times, you know.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:56:01

Yeah.

Meredith Oke: 00:56:02

That maybe, you know, maybe you're supposed to

Meredith Oke: 00:56:04

chill out a little bit when you have your period

Meredith Oke: 00:56:05

and not be doing gymnastics competitions or

Meredith Oke: 00:56:09

whatever was happening.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:56:10

Absolutely controversials. Yeah, definitely.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:56:15

Yeah. That absolutely, yeah, fits. Definitely.

Nikko Kennedy: 00:56:19

Yeah. The natural ebb and flow of, of energy. So

Nikko Kennedy: 00:56:24

in the beginning of the podcast we talked about

Nikko Kennedy: 00:56:26

my work with families because that's really what

Nikko Kennedy: 00:56:29

is, has been primary for the past few years since

Nikko Kennedy: 00:56:32

I made the pivot. But in the background, which

Nikko Kennedy: 00:56:35

used to be my primary is doing business and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:56:38

marketing consultations and you know, my journey

Nikko Kennedy: 00:56:43

from being employee, driving my health into the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:56:48

ground, being matched with, you know, clients

Nikko Kennedy: 00:56:52

that, you know, that other people were placing

Nikko Kennedy: 00:56:54

for me and how all that didn't fit with my

Nikko Kennedy: 00:56:57

energetic flow shifting over into freelancing and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:57:01

doing business and marketing consultations, which

Nikko Kennedy: 00:57:04

I did for almost 10 years and then kind of put it

Nikko Kennedy: 00:57:07

down and now that's something I still do in the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:57:09

background and that you and I have been

Nikko Kennedy: 00:57:10

collaborating on together with the, you know,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:57:14

coaching program that we're doing. And it has

Nikko Kennedy: 00:57:20

been so clear to me that the financial freedom

Nikko Kennedy: 00:57:24

piece is a huge part of what keeps people locked

Nikko Kennedy: 00:57:28

into their current paradigm. Because the in our

Nikko Kennedy: 00:57:33

world, like money is one of the ways that we can

Nikko Kennedy: 00:57:36

feel secure and so anything that's going to

Nikko Kennedy: 00:57:41

potentially interfere with our money making

Nikko Kennedy: 00:57:44

potential is very scary. So like sleeping in,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:57:50

missing work, not being able to complete an

Nikko Kennedy: 00:57:52

assignment, those kinds of things are, can be

Nikko Kennedy: 00:57:56

viscerally terrifying to people. And I think

Nikko Kennedy: 00:57:59

that's one of the where building circadian

Nikko Kennedy: 00:58:02

community is so important and also where like

Nikko Kennedy: 00:58:07

there was a time when I was closing down my

Nikko Kennedy: 00:58:09

business cases that I thought I was putting it

Nikko Kennedy: 00:58:13

down forever. And then when I went into health

Nikko Kennedy: 00:58:16

and wellness space and found how much business as

Nikko Kennedy: 00:58:22

the paradigm is right now doesn't serve people's

Nikko Kennedy: 00:58:27

health and wellness and that health and wellness

Nikko Kennedy: 00:58:29

practitioners as a group often are also not able

Nikko Kennedy: 00:58:34

to fully actualize their visions without certain

Nikko Kennedy: 00:58:41

necessary business and in this day and age,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:58:44

computer skills. So in that background I've kind

Nikko Kennedy: 00:58:48

of started distilling what I've learned about

Nikko Kennedy: 00:58:54

running a computer based business, circadian

Nikko Kennedy: 00:58:57

style as a homeschooling mom, right. It's like a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:59:03

very wild, unique juggle of things that I figured

Nikko Kennedy: 00:59:06

out how to make work and having certain rules and

Nikko Kennedy: 00:59:11

processes, right. Like I used to be like a

Nikko Kennedy: 00:59:13

digital business consultant and you know,

Nikko Kennedy: 00:59:15

efficiency and all of that kind of thing. And now

Nikko Kennedy: 00:59:18

it's a lot more and I tend to call what I do

Nikko Kennedy: 00:59:20

workflows with the flows being a really important

Nikko Kennedy: 00:59:25

part of it because it's not about, it is very

Nikko Kennedy: 00:59:30

process oriented but it's about understanding

Nikko Kennedy: 00:59:32

where processes can flex across time and also how

Nikko Kennedy: 00:59:36

to be really efficient and make sure that the

Nikko Kennedy: 00:59:39

time spent Online is doing valuable work and work

Nikko Kennedy: 00:59:46

that brings like, that intrinsic satisfaction

Nikko Kennedy: 00:59:49

there and that it is all structured in a way that

Nikko Kennedy: 00:59:53

gives that flexibility, flexibility and freedom

Nikko Kennedy: 00:59:55

to be able to accommodate your energy when you're

Nikko Kennedy: 00:59:57

ready to just surge and rail, and also to be able

Nikko Kennedy: 01:00:01

to accommodate, when you do need to withdraw and

Nikko Kennedy: 01:00:05

replenish and focus your energy in other

Nikko Kennedy: 01:00:07

directions. So that workflows element, there is

Nikko Kennedy: 01:00:11

something that is kind of coming around now, and

Nikko Kennedy: 01:00:16

I appreciate all of the opportunities that I have

Nikko Kennedy: 01:00:18

to help people with, you know, optimizing the

Nikko Kennedy: 01:00:22

work elements there with, you know, the circadian

Nikko Kennedy: 01:00:27

and life and all the other things that we do.

Meredith Oke: 01:00:30

Yes, because it does. It all fits together. And

Meredith Oke: 01:00:33

if you have, yeah, the clarity of purpose, the

Meredith Oke: 01:00:39

clarity of your goals and then melt, meeting that

Meredith Oke: 01:00:42

with an optimized workflow, you can take care of

Meredith Oke: 01:00:47

the basics in the downflow periods. And then when

Meredith Oke: 01:00:50

that surge comes, it's so clear what to work on.

Meredith Oke: 01:00:54

And you don't need to be in super surge every

Meredith Oke: 01:00:57

day, every minute, because you get as much done

Meredith Oke: 01:01:00

in those surge periods when you have clarity and

Meredith Oke: 01:01:03

an optimized flow than you would just trying to

Meredith Oke: 01:01:07

hammer through it every day. And, yeah, I think

Meredith Oke: 01:01:11

that's been what is. What is so fun about, you

Meredith Oke: 01:01:14

know, Nico and I are doing this coaching program,

Meredith Oke: 01:01:18

expansion circle and yeah, helping supporting

Meredith Oke: 01:01:23

people to get that clarity and then helping them

Meredith Oke: 01:01:25

to really break it, break it down, to actually

Meredith Oke: 01:01:28

doing it in a way that works with their life,

Meredith Oke: 01:01:31

that works with their biology, because we take

Meredith Oke: 01:01:34

all of that into account. I had never really

Meredith Oke: 01:01:37

thought about it like that just now. We've been

Meredith Oke: 01:01:40

doing it for a few months now. I'm like, yeah,

Meredith Oke: 01:01:43

this is really cool.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:01:44

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, So, I mean, for

Nikko Kennedy: 01:01:48

people who are listening, they probably are like,

Nikko Kennedy: 01:01:50

what, you guys are doing a business coaching

Nikko Kennedy: 01:01:53

program? Like, I have no idea about this, but

Nikko Kennedy: 01:01:57

yeah, we, like, you know, we've been working on

Nikko Kennedy: 01:02:01

all this stuff at IAQB and qvc and one of the

Nikko Kennedy: 01:02:05

recurring things that, you know, people tell us,

Nikko Kennedy: 01:02:09

you know, a lot of people go through the

Nikko Kennedy: 01:02:11

certification program and are just, you know, it

Nikko Kennedy: 01:02:14

fits right in with their existing business and

Nikko Kennedy: 01:02:15

they're ready to fly. And then there's also a

Nikko Kennedy: 01:02:18

significant group who, you know, are having

Nikko Kennedy: 01:02:21

trouble with managing the time or figuring out

Nikko Kennedy: 01:02:26

how they're going to pivot based on this

Nikko Kennedy: 01:02:29

information. And, you know, this group often

Nikko Kennedy: 01:02:31

includes practitioners who are licensed and their

Nikko Kennedy: 01:02:35

license dictates how they're able to practice. So

Nikko Kennedy: 01:02:39

that can create a significant hurdle to

Nikko Kennedy: 01:02:41

integrating circadian light base. You know,

Nikko Kennedy: 01:02:45

prescribing grounding, or, you know, these

Nikko Kennedy: 01:02:47

different things that they learned in our

Nikko Kennedy: 01:02:49

program. Right. And so figuring out how to maybe

Nikko Kennedy: 01:02:54

even build a whole new business or education

Nikko Kennedy: 01:02:56

program around, like, the synthesis of their

Nikko Kennedy: 01:02:59

knowledge in a way that is, you know, safe and

Nikko Kennedy: 01:03:01

comfortable. And so, you know, those two groups

Nikko Kennedy: 01:03:06

of, like, the people who are just getting started

Nikko Kennedy: 01:03:07

all together and the people who are going through

Nikko Kennedy: 01:03:09

a major pivot, that was kind of the target that

Nikko Kennedy: 01:03:13

we had in mind of like, how do we help these

Nikko Kennedy: 01:03:16

people to, you know, fully achieve their vision?

Nikko Kennedy: 01:03:19

Because, you know, we're all inspired by knowing

Nikko Kennedy: 01:03:22

that LIGHT has such a foundational and, you know,

Nikko Kennedy: 01:03:25

such a huge impact on our well being and health.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:03:29

How do we effectively teach this and how do we

Nikko Kennedy: 01:03:33

not burn out while doing so effectively live it?

Nikko Kennedy: 01:03:37

Yeah.

Meredith Oke: 01:03:37

And that's the beautiful thing about having your

Meredith Oke: 01:03:40

own business. Like, it is filled with challenges.

Meredith Oke: 01:03:44

However, you know, it's everything that you've

Meredith Oke: 01:03:48

been saying, it is your business, so you get to

Meredith Oke: 01:03:51

structure it however you want.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:03:54

Right. And a lot of times people are.

Meredith Oke: 01:03:57

Like, oh, well, I have to be on zoom all day or I

Meredith Oke: 01:03:59

have to make this, make things last this long.

Meredith Oke: 01:04:02

And I'm like, why? Why do you have to do that?

Meredith Oke: 01:04:05

Who told you that? Oh, well, that's just how it

Meredith Oke: 01:04:07

is, I think. So does it work for you? Do you want

Meredith Oke: 01:04:11

it to be like that? No. Okay, well, it's yours.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:04:14

Yeah. It's your business.

Meredith Oke: 01:04:15

You get to decide how it's structured.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:04:18

Yeah. So you had a background as an executive

Nikko Kennedy: 01:04:21

coach before LIGHT took over your world?

Meredith Oke: 01:04:28

Before I applied all those skills to organizing

Meredith Oke: 01:04:33

information in a very unique area. Yes. Correct.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:04:38

Yeah. So would you share a little bit about what

Nikko Kennedy: 01:04:41

that, how that is now coming in? Because I've

Nikko Kennedy: 01:04:45

been sitting and watching you do just amazing

Nikko Kennedy: 01:04:48

transformational work with people. And I

Nikko Kennedy: 01:04:50

experienced it when I was going through the IAQB

Nikko Kennedy: 01:04:53

certification. And then now watching you do it

Nikko Kennedy: 01:04:55

with other people and like, it's obviously a

Nikko Kennedy: 01:04:57

natural skill that you have, but also something

Nikko Kennedy: 01:05:00

that you dedicated yourself to learning how to do

Nikko Kennedy: 01:05:04

that. And so. Yeah. Could you share just a little

Nikko Kennedy: 01:05:06

bit about how you've done this? Yeah.

Meredith Oke: 01:05:12

Yeah. So it's, I mean, it's, it's coaching is

Meredith Oke: 01:05:15

coaching. Right. So you're supporting people to

Meredith Oke: 01:05:18

reach their goals. A lot of people in this

Meredith Oke: 01:05:20

community, those, those are health and wellness

Meredith Oke: 01:05:21

goals. And my background, it was career goals,

Meredith Oke: 01:05:25

business goals. You know, I also personal, I did

Meredith Oke: 01:05:30

stuff that would be more considered life

Meredith Oke: 01:05:32

coaching. But it's, you know, it's really

Meredith Oke: 01:05:37

difficult to see a greater vision for yourself

Meredith Oke: 01:05:40

when you're in it. Like when you're in the weeds,

Meredith Oke: 01:05:44

you know, we're talking about this. You and I had

Meredith Oke: 01:05:46

a call with Melissa, who helped us see a greater

Meredith Oke: 01:05:49

vision for what we're working on than we could

Meredith Oke: 01:05:51

see ourselves. And so the coaching skills are

Meredith Oke: 01:05:55

really about holding space for people to see a

Meredith Oke: 01:05:58

bigger vision they can see for themselves, and

Meredith Oke: 01:06:00

then helping them get there in a way that feels

Meredith Oke: 01:06:03

good, that is satisfying and fun and profitable.

Meredith Oke: 01:06:08

You know, there's a lot of shame and fear around

Meredith Oke: 01:06:12

making a sale and earning money and getting paid.

Meredith Oke: 01:06:16

That is, you know, in a. In the quantum field,

Meredith Oke: 01:06:20

sending out the signal that you're not available

Meredith Oke: 01:06:22

for any of that. And so to get that clarity, as

Meredith Oke: 01:06:27

we talk about, like, clarity, being a magnet does

Meredith Oke: 01:06:30

require some support. And that's, you know, what

Meredith Oke: 01:06:33

I, What I give because I'm. I'm not in. I'm not

Meredith Oke: 01:06:37

in it. I'm on the outside. But I have, you know,

Meredith Oke: 01:06:41

like, an unconditional desire for everyone to be

Meredith Oke: 01:06:43

successful. Like, I just really want everyone to

Meredith Oke: 01:06:46

be successful. And if you're in my world, I will

Meredith Oke: 01:06:49

do whatever I can to help you be successful.

Meredith Oke: 01:06:52

That's just how I am.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:06:56

Yes, I've definitely seen that.

Meredith Oke: 01:07:00

And I believe that people who understand all of

Meredith Oke: 01:07:02

the things that we've been talking about, you

Meredith Oke: 01:07:05

know, your success really matters to the world.

Meredith Oke: 01:07:08

It matters to you that you. So you can construct

Meredith Oke: 01:07:11

a life that feels good and that pays you, but it

Meredith Oke: 01:07:14

also, for everyone listening for you. Your

Meredith Oke: 01:07:17

success isn't a selfish ambition. It's a selfless

Meredith Oke: 01:07:21

ambition.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:07:23

Yeah, it makes such a huge difference the way you

Nikko Kennedy: 01:07:26

show up at work, like, you know, goes back to

Nikko Kennedy: 01:07:30

your family and all of the people that you care

Nikko Kennedy: 01:07:32

about that are not related to your work, too.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:07:34

Like, for all of you, you know, like, I've made

Nikko Kennedy: 01:07:37

so many of these transitions for my family and

Nikko Kennedy: 01:07:39

based on their needs as well as mine. You know, I

Nikko Kennedy: 01:07:42

haven't talked as much about that, but there's

Nikko Kennedy: 01:07:44

definitely, you know, things where, you know,

Nikko Kennedy: 01:07:46

moments where I had to step back and look out,

Nikko Kennedy: 01:07:48

say, oh, this isn't working for, you know, this

Nikko Kennedy: 01:07:51

child, or, oh, this isn't working for my husband.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:07:56

So even though I'm, you know, think that this is

Nikko Kennedy: 01:07:59

the right way, like, have to roll it back and

Nikko Kennedy: 01:08:02

figure out a different alternative path. And so

Nikko Kennedy: 01:08:05

that, yeah, all of the. The things that we do

Nikko Kennedy: 01:08:09

with lifestyle, like dreamlining and. And all

Nikko Kennedy: 01:08:16

that visioning work, it's been so fun doing it in

Nikko Kennedy: 01:08:20

community with you that we. We did had our first

Nikko Kennedy: 01:08:25

group come through Expansion Circle, where We got

Nikko Kennedy: 01:08:29

to kind of like play with the ideas and the, the

Nikko Kennedy: 01:08:32

collaboration and the energy and dynamic between

Nikko Kennedy: 01:08:35

you, Meredith and me, Nico, and the backgrounds

Nikko Kennedy: 01:08:38

each of us, you know, bring to these

Nikko Kennedy: 01:08:41

conversations. And you know that we both have

Nikko Kennedy: 01:08:44

this kind of like coaching, sometimes consulting

Nikko Kennedy: 01:08:47

more often coaching. But, you know, we, we each

Nikko Kennedy: 01:08:50

do have a lot of experience and have tried a lot

Nikko Kennedy: 01:08:52

of things in business and lifestyle and home and

Nikko Kennedy: 01:08:56

circadian health and all kinds of health and, and

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:01

also like extensive like trainings and things do.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:05

Meredith, I know that you're constantly learning

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:09

and growing your skill sets, and I'm also

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:11

constantly learning and growing skill sets and it

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:13

was so awesome to, you know, the first group of

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:16

people we collected were similarly also always

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:19

like learning and growing and trying new things.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:22

So to jump in and be able to have these kinds of

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:24

conversations about what is your ideal lifestyle,

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:28

what is your workflow? How do you want to feel

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:29

when you do open your computer for the first time

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:33

in the morning? How does that feel? What does

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:36

that look like? What have you done before that?

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:39

And same thing, like, when you close your

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:40

computer, how do you feel about that time that

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:42

you spent? How do you want to feel? Like, what

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:46

are the changes between, you know, your ideals

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:49

for those moments and the day to day realities

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:51

and like, how do we bring, you know, coherence to

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:56

the ideal lifestyle that we wish we could have

Nikko Kennedy: 01:09:59

and the, you know, life that we woke up to when

Nikko Kennedy: 01:10:03

we rolled out of bed this morning at whatever

Nikko Kennedy: 01:10:05

time it was.

Meredith Oke: 01:10:10

That's it. I love that. Yeah, that's it exactly.

Meredith Oke: 01:10:14

Because at the end of the day, it's just the day

Meredith Oke: 01:10:17

we have the day we're in right now, right this

Meredith Oke: 01:10:20

minute. And I love goals. I have goals, but it's

Meredith Oke: 01:10:27

a moment to moment and we're allowed to make

Meredith Oke: 01:10:31

those moments be in a way that generally

Meredith Oke: 01:10:35

speaking, make us feel good.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:10:37

Yeah.

Meredith Oke: 01:10:38

And pass that on to others.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:10:40

Yeah, that was something I shared with too, or

Nikko Kennedy: 01:10:43

you know, with the group when we were talking and

Nikko Kennedy: 01:10:46

I was like, you know, those competitors out

Nikko Kennedy: 01:10:48

there, those people who you think are doing evil

Nikko Kennedy: 01:10:51

in the world, or those people who you think are

Nikko Kennedy: 01:10:53

so far ahead of you that you could never be in

Nikko Kennedy: 01:10:55

their shoes, but you kind of wish that you were a

Nikko Kennedy: 01:10:57

little bit. They have the same hours today as you

Nikko Kennedy: 01:11:02

do, the exact same hours in. So we have all kinds

Nikko Kennedy: 01:11:06

of tools. Like there's, you know, workflow

Nikko Kennedy: 01:11:09

optimization, there's delegation, there are

Nikko Kennedy: 01:11:12

partnerships, there are tools, there are

Nikko Kennedy: 01:11:15

softwares. Like, how do you, how do you choose

Nikko Kennedy: 01:11:18

the right ones of all of like the different

Nikko Kennedy: 01:11:20

things that at your disposal that are also at all

Nikko Kennedy: 01:11:24

of your competitor or role model model, you know,

Nikko Kennedy: 01:11:28

they also have them at your disposal. And so

Nikko Kennedy: 01:11:30

obviously, like some people have more money or

Nikko Kennedy: 01:11:33

some people have more experience or some people

Nikko Kennedy: 01:11:36

have a, you know, different network or whatever.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:11:39

But like the time in the day, that part is the

Nikko Kennedy: 01:11:42

same for everyone.

Meredith Oke: 01:11:45

Yes.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:11:46

Yeah.

Meredith Oke: 01:11:46

And so, yeah. So no matter where you're at, there

Meredith Oke: 01:11:49

are, there are ways to structure things where the

Meredith Oke: 01:11:53

momentum will, will be increased, the results

Meredith Oke: 01:11:56

will be increased, the satisfaction be increased.

Meredith Oke: 01:12:00

And you know, not to be harsh, but often what is

Meredith Oke: 01:12:04

holding people back is they think it's all of

Meredith Oke: 01:12:06

these limitations, but it's really not having

Meredith Oke: 01:12:10

enough support to move out of your comfort zone

Meredith Oke: 01:12:13

is often what it comes down to.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:12:15

Right? Yep.

Meredith Oke: 01:12:19

I'll leave it at that. Because it is like change.

Meredith Oke: 01:12:23

I've been doing, looking at Martin Picard's work

Meredith Oke: 01:12:27

lately and the idea like change is it taxes our

Meredith Oke: 01:12:33

mitochondria like we need to have. So all of this

Meredith Oke: 01:12:36

mitochondria optimization work that we've been

Meredith Oke: 01:12:38

doing for our health, like, what is that

Meredith Oke: 01:12:40

translating into? That's translating into energy

Meredith Oke: 01:12:42

to live our lives. Like, what does that look

Meredith Oke: 01:12:44

like? Anyway, I could go on, but I won't. So.

Meredith Oke: 01:12:48

Okay, before we wrap, because I know, I know my

Meredith Oke: 01:12:52

people and they're going to ask, they're going to

Meredith Oke: 01:12:54

say at the beginning, Nico said there were six

Meredith Oke: 01:12:57

ways to support your melatonin and you covered

Meredith Oke: 01:13:00

four of them. So.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:13:02

Okay, perfect.

Meredith Oke: 01:13:03

Okay, I hear you all. We haven't even published

Meredith Oke: 01:13:05

this yet, but I hear it, so I'm going to recap.

Meredith Oke: 01:13:08

And you. Okay, so we have sunlight, darkness,

Meredith Oke: 01:13:16

meal timing.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:13:18

Yeah, sure. Meal timing. So meal timing. I

Nikko Kennedy: 01:13:21

usually also include food because there are

Nikko Kennedy: 01:13:25

certain foods that actually have melatonin in

Nikko Kennedy: 01:13:27

them. So food based sources is kind of like

Nikko Kennedy: 01:13:30

supplemental melatonin. So there's the food based

Nikko Kennedy: 01:13:33

sources, there's the supplemental melatonin and

Nikko Kennedy: 01:13:38

then there's this one. So is that. Are we only at

Nikko Kennedy: 01:13:43

4? So maybe I should. Yeah.

Meredith Oke: 01:13:45

So there's temperature.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:13:47

Yep, temperature, temperature, darkness,

Nikko Kennedy: 01:13:52

sunlight. And then there's the food, and then

Nikko Kennedy: 01:13:58

there's the supplements, and then there's the

Nikko Kennedy: 01:14:01

microbiome. Microbiome produces melatonin. So

Nikko Kennedy: 01:14:04

when you're optimizing your microbiome health,

Nikko Kennedy: 01:14:06

which is on your skin as well as permeating your

Nikko Kennedy: 01:14:09

whole body, that also produces melatonin. And

Nikko Kennedy: 01:14:13

then I guess there are actually more. But if you

Nikko Kennedy: 01:14:17

are pregnant, your placenta also creates

Nikko Kennedy: 01:14:19

melatonin that goes into circulation for mama and

Nikko Kennedy: 01:14:21

baby. And then for babies, if they are

Nikko Kennedy: 01:14:25

breastfeeding, I guess we're at 8. But breast

Nikko Kennedy: 01:14:30

milk also contains melatonin.

Meredith Oke: 01:14:34

So. Amazing. Okay, so in terms of. Yeah, so the

Meredith Oke: 01:14:38

practical things, we want it. We want to eat in

Meredith Oke: 01:14:42

the morning and stop eating before it gets dark.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:14:46

And we want to be eating protein foods.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:14:49

Tryptophan is the precursor to melatonin. Right.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:14:53

And then you can look up lists of foods that have

Nikko Kennedy: 01:14:55

melatonin and decide which of those might or

Nikko Kennedy: 01:14:57

might not be appropriate for you there.

Meredith Oke: 01:15:00

I love that suggestion.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:15:01

Yeah.

Meredith Oke: 01:15:03

What about movement and exercising?

Nikko Kennedy: 01:15:06

Yeah, definitely. There are correlations there

Nikko Kennedy: 01:15:08

too. You know, movement generates. He movement

Nikko Kennedy: 01:15:11

stimulates. You know, anything that supports your

Nikko Kennedy: 01:15:13

circadian health is going to support your. Your

Nikko Kennedy: 01:15:16

melatonin production. Anything that supports

Nikko Kennedy: 01:15:18

mitochondrial health is going to support

Nikko Kennedy: 01:15:19

melatonin production. People always talk about

Nikko Kennedy: 01:15:22

mitochondria as the powerhouse of the cell and it

Nikko Kennedy: 01:15:24

makes ATP. And it's like, that's a whole other

Nikko Kennedy: 01:15:28

topic. And people could go into the podcast

Nikko Kennedy: 01:15:30

archives to hear people who are dairy expert

Nikko Kennedy: 01:15:34

talking about that. But yeah, mitochondria also

Nikko Kennedy: 01:15:37

make melatonin. So anything that's helping your

Nikko Kennedy: 01:15:41

mitochondria be more healthy is also going to

Nikko Kennedy: 01:15:43

help with that. Another thing about melatonin is

Nikko Kennedy: 01:15:46

that it's inhibited by fluoride. So there are

Nikko Kennedy: 01:15:53

things that you can do and that would also

Nikko Kennedy: 01:15:54

probably be a whole other can of worms to get

Nikko Kennedy: 01:15:57

into. But, you know, for women who are pregnant,

Nikko Kennedy: 01:16:00

I'm always like, at least for this time, consider

Nikko Kennedy: 01:16:03

not getting any dental fluoride treatments and

Nikko Kennedy: 01:16:05

swapping out your fluoride toothpaste products

Nikko Kennedy: 01:16:08

and things, and being mindful of fluoride in your

Nikko Kennedy: 01:16:11

water just for the fact that it's. Is in

Nikko Kennedy: 01:16:15

pregnancy particularly, melatonin is so key to

Nikko Kennedy: 01:16:18

placental development, and placental development

Nikko Kennedy: 01:16:21

is so key to the pregnancy going well as a whole.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:16:25

So for that time, I'm always like, I don't. I

Nikko Kennedy: 01:16:30

don't really have many qualms about saying, like,

Nikko Kennedy: 01:16:32

for this phase of life, like, everything you can

Nikko Kennedy: 01:16:34

do to optimize melatonin is going to be

Nikko Kennedy: 01:16:37

beneficial for you and your baby. And that

Nikko Kennedy: 01:16:39

includes eliminating fluoride along with your

Nikko Kennedy: 01:16:43

artificial lights at night, artificial white and

Nikko Kennedy: 01:16:47

blue lights. So, yeah, but you're right. We

Nikko Kennedy: 01:16:51

didn't quite get to the end of that, and we

Nikko Kennedy: 01:16:53

actually discovered a couple more.

Meredith Oke: 01:16:57

We're in the flow. It's all flexible. Yeah, there

Meredith Oke: 01:17:00

are many things and we talked about a lot of

Meredith Oke: 01:17:03

them, and if you want to go deeper on any of

Meredith Oke: 01:17:06

them, go to Nico's substack. And I'm sure she has

Meredith Oke: 01:17:09

articles on.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:17:10

Every single one of these things. Totally. Yep.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:17:13

You can go in. There's a little search bar at the

Nikko Kennedy: 01:17:15

top, so that's kind of fun. You can plumb the

Nikko Kennedy: 01:17:17

search bar and then I'm also like super there.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:17:20

And for people who do upgrade to a paid

Nikko Kennedy: 01:17:22

subscription, it opens up a DM channel. So then

Nikko Kennedy: 01:17:24

you can just be like, hey, Nico, what do I need

Nikko Kennedy: 01:17:27

to read? Where do I find this? And then I can

Nikko Kennedy: 01:17:29

pull up the article for you. Yeah, and that's a

Nikko Kennedy: 01:17:33

really good way. And it's like super affordable

Nikko Kennedy: 01:17:36

way to get just like some little coaching and,

Nikko Kennedy: 01:17:39

you know, access to so many research papers and

Nikko Kennedy: 01:17:42

all that. So, yeah, would love to chat over

Nikko Kennedy: 01:17:45

there. It's fun.

Meredith Oke: 01:17:46

Perfect.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:17:48

Yeah.

Meredith Oke: 01:17:48

So that's it. If you would like. Yeah. So if you

Meredith Oke: 01:17:51

want to follow up on any of the health related

Meredith Oke: 01:17:54

stuff we talk about, go to Nico Substack. I

Meredith Oke: 01:17:57

recommend being, you know, paying for the

Meredith Oke: 01:17:59

membership. It's a great group in there and Nico,

Meredith Oke: 01:18:02

as you've heard, is very knowledgeable and we

Meredith Oke: 01:18:05

didn't quite cover this, but Nico's like, like a

Meredith Oke: 01:18:07

research maven. She's director of research at the

Meredith Oke: 01:18:11

Institute of Applied Quantum Biology. She's

Meredith Oke: 01:18:12

really good at it. She can help you find pretty

Meredith Oke: 01:18:15

much whatever you need. She probably has it in

Meredith Oke: 01:18:17

her. Her bibliographies. Yeah. And then if you

Meredith Oke: 01:18:21

want the business coaching we were talking about,

Meredith Oke: 01:18:23

that's at expansioncircle IO or you can go to

Meredith Oke: 01:18:27

qpcpod.com and click on the little. The coaching

Meredith Oke: 01:18:33

thing in there.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:18:36

Yeah.

Meredith Oke: 01:18:36

And Nico and I are both in there bringing our

Meredith Oke: 01:18:39

expertise to support new paradigm professionals

Meredith Oke: 01:18:44

in any capacity. So it doesn't really matter what

Meredith Oke: 01:18:46

you do if you align with all the stuff we've been

Meredith Oke: 01:18:49

talking about. We'd love to have you in there.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:18:52

Yes, definitely. It's been so much fun and I love

Nikko Kennedy: 01:18:55

chatting about all of this stuff and we've

Nikko Kennedy: 01:18:57

created a very nice, comfortable space to come in

Nikko Kennedy: 01:19:02

and talk and also do real transformative work.

Meredith Oke: 01:19:07

Yeah, no, it's really cool. I'm so impressed and

Meredith Oke: 01:19:10

proud of all of the people who've come through so

Meredith Oke: 01:19:14

far. They've made such amazing progress. Nico, I

Meredith Oke: 01:19:17

feel like we could talk for another two hours.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:19:20

Yeah. But.

Meredith Oke: 01:19:22

I do have a time limit from my podcast producer

Meredith Oke: 01:19:25

on how long this podcast can be before he starts

Meredith Oke: 01:19:28

making more money.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:19:32

Yeah. Gotta optimize all the ins and all the outs.

Meredith Oke: 01:19:35

Yeah.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:19:36

So, yep, we can get together again another day.

Meredith Oke: 01:19:40

Yes, we will do that. Yes, we will do this. You

Meredith Oke: 01:19:44

know, stay tuned. Meredith and Nico's chats will

Meredith Oke: 01:19:47

continue.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:19:48

Yep. Thanks so much. It's always a pleasure to

Nikko Kennedy: 01:19:50

talk with you and go through these things. And I

Nikko Kennedy: 01:19:52

love that our listeners got to hear this little

Nikko Kennedy: 01:19:55

more, you know, intimate version of what our day

Nikko Kennedy: 01:19:57

to day lives look like. And you know, what we've

Nikko Kennedy: 01:20:00

been working on, you know, publicly and somewhat

Nikko Kennedy: 01:20:03

privately. So that was a great, great

Nikko Kennedy: 01:20:06

conversation. I'm excited to share it around too.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:20:10

So thank you.

Meredith Oke: 01:20:12

Thank you, Nico. See you all soon.

Nikko Kennedy: 01:20:14

Bye.